Manic Miner/Jet Set Willy no longer available

[berarma]

I think they used to be available. The availability field says "available" but still there are no files to download. It says denied.

What's up with the availability? Is there a way to know the reason they're denied?

[TomD]

Some details on why here

viewtopic.php?t=8297

[berarma]

Some details on why here

viewtopic.php?t=8297

Thanks, I wasn't able to find it. It's indeed sad that such iconic titles are distribution denied.

[Stefan]

Both applications (Manic Miner and Jet Set Willy) are for a trade mark - I do not see how being awarded a trade mark has any bearing on ownership of said software, but I do understand any hesitance.

Note that both trade marks are set to expire next year - based on the current state of the elite web site I would not be surprised if they just lapse.

[Lee Bee]

Dozens of Miner Willy spinoff games and derivative works have been made while there was no copyright problem, so presumably you can still play these games since they were made legally.

[akeley]

Thanks, I wasn't able to find it. It's indeed sad that such iconic titles are distribution denied.

They're still available on WoS and WoS Classic.

[PeterJ]

They're still available on WoS and WoS Classic.

Yes, both those sites use an old version of ZXDB which is pre these changes being made.

I've had a number of attempts at trying to convince Steve that having his titles available on a managed site with his blessing, is better than them being only available on all these 'abandonware' sites. He has so far considered and declined my requests. If someone wants any of his Elite titles, the can find them all with a simple Google, but it falls on deaf ears.

Another copyright owner of many labels has been quite the opposite. Actually encouraging sites like ours (non-commercial), and just asking us to include a copyright message, which we of course compiled with.

[PeterJ]

Dozens of Miner Willy spinoff games and derivative works have been made while there was no copyright problem.

There is an interesting discussion here Lee about such games. I tend to stay on the 'stay safe' side of the fence.

https://forum.gamemaker.io/index.php?th ... nt%20below.

Sadly, Steve is not a guy to be trifled with. Until I'm 100% clear who owns the copyright, and I have their permission, they will stay hidden.

To be honest, I think he was just trying to stop people selling MM & JSW stuff.

[Bedazzle]

Another copyright owner of many labels has been quite the opposite.

I have side question - how to find who is holding rights of Gargoyle games for example?

[RWAC]

I can undertand a company like Nintendo wanting to protect their IP. But surely Manic Miner and JSW have zero commercial value?

[Joefish]

The 'legal response' is pathetic - it basically admits there's no evidence whatsoever to either support or contradict their statement of the history of the rights, so they're just going to side with whoever paid them. And they're not even a lawyer, just a paralegal.

[Nick]

Note that both trade marks are set to expire next year - based on the current state of the elite web site I would not be surprised if they just lapse.

I've just had a quick look at their website and it does look a bit bare. Has Elite possibly gone, or is going into liquidation?

[Lee Bee]

I can't help but wonder if the original version of Jet Set Willy is copyrighted, given that it includes copyrighted music from 1964's Fiddler On The Roof?

[Joefish]

In case anyone hasn't figured it out yet, the bit in The Haunting of Waterbelle End where you can take a shovel, dig up a corpse from its grave, and end up with a roll of printer paper granting you the rights to Harry S. Price's back-catalogue...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X-cGCu ... T8iP2/view

Well, let's just say I thought it might be relevant. 'Waterbelle End'. Say it with me.

[Mousey]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X-cGCu ... T8iP2/view

A fascinating, yet at the same time sad, document to read. Thanks for sharing Joefish.

I know it’s naive thinking but I just wish companies would release their 40 year old games into the wild rather than trying to squeeze every last penny out of them. A few do, but sadly they are in the minority.

[ParadigmShifter]

Yeah they removed the tune from JSW for the rereleases (and JSW2) since it was copyrighted.

Can't remember (or no one knows?) if it was a bug or deliberate that the tune got progressively worse the more lives you lost (I think one of the delay times for the notes was linked to the number of lives remaining).

[dfzx]

Can't remember (or no one knows?) if it was a bug or deliberate that the tune got progressively worse the more lives you lost (I think one of the delay times for the notes was linked to the number of lives remaining).

It was a feature! It's in the disassembly, here. Because I always played with infinite lives (well, non-reducing lives), I didn't even know it happened until I read about it on this site a few years ago.

[Joefish]

What's sad about that document is it's written by a paralegal. Not a solicitor. It carries no weight whatsoever. Look it up.

A 'paralegal' is a solicitor's secretary. Unless they work for a law firm with actual solicitors behind them, a letter from one means no more than from an angry meddler down your street complaining about cat sh!t on their lawn. You or I could call ourselves a 'paralegal' and advertise our services tomorrow and nothing would happen. Until someone tried to sue you for lousy advice, anyway, but that's what small-print is for.

A paralegal pulls in barely average wage, is NOT qualified or even legally allowed to give legal advice, and if they've set up a business on their own it likely just means no law firm will hire them. As for being a member of some trade body, it's not like lawyers/solicitors who have the backing of their qualification and insurance against malpractice; it's just a 'code of conduct' which is largely scamming them out of a few quid each year for another meaningless stamp at the bottom of their paperwork. It may at least mean they whipped out a certificate at some point to show they completed some sort of law course. Then again, I did a legal module as part of my Engineering degree, but I'd never presume to call myself qualified in any aspects of law.

For a solicitor to have researched and drawn up that document would have cost a good few grand. From a paralegal, it was probably barely worth a hundred if that.

[dfzx]

What's sad about that document is it's written by a paralegal. Not a solicitor. It carries no weight whatsoever. Look it up.

It wouldn't carry any weight if it had been written by a solicitor either. Until a judge rules on it, it's just people saying what they think, making claims and counterclaims.

The problem is the threat. It only costs a couple of hundred quid to make a court claim against someone for what, to the recipient, could be a damaging sum (several thousand pounds). If Matthew Smith, Spectrum Computing, or indeed anyone else did anything to provoke such a claim they would have to defend against it, which means cost, time and inconvenience even if they almost certainly would prevail. Against a litigious person or corporation who is prepared to spend even a little bit of money, caution is unfortunately wise.

[Joefish]

One could always ask to see the assessment of the value of said intellectual property as declared for inheritance tax purposes when it transferred to the widow of the holder, since it's so valuable.

[Cheez26]

Here in the US, aggressive IP defense has been required thanks to Disney and even more so to Lars Ulrich of Metallica fame. However, I didn't think Elite Systems is still a thing in this scenario...and I, for sure, did not think UK copyright is as aggressive as the US's.

It might be a fluke though.

[1024MAK]

I didn't think Elite Systems is still a thing in this scenario...

The company is still registered: https://find-and-update.company-informa ... y/01840901

Mark

[Cheez26]

@1024MAK Thanks, Mark.

[dfzx]

It looks like someone got those trademarks, too.

But the Jet Set Willy one has the wrong sprite.

[spider]

Lots of random things I've heard over the years, both likely some fact and some fiction in them, what with the internet being so erm "factually accurate on everything" etc.

I've never raised the issue with either author actually, but that is a moot point perhaps.

To be honest my only view is really it is a sad state of affairs about this, with no "easy fix solution" in sight really.

Yes its a shame they are denied 'as is , at least for now' but it is what it is and I respect the decision here 100% on that.

No more words from me on this.